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War and art. Artist Vitaliy Komar about Sots Art without quotes

The sixth episode of the podcast “Genis: View from New York”, dedicated to the Russian war in Ukraine, is on air. In each program, we discuss various aspects of this tragic story, including, of course, the realm of art. This time we are talking to a well-known New York artist, master of the conceptual school, one of the founders of Sots Art, an extremely influential movement in the history of Russian art, Vitaly Komar.

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War and art: Sots art without quotes

by Radio Liberty

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Almost half a century ago, I met the artists Komar and Melamid, who have now become universally recognized classics. I remember how it started. For me, from their painting "Stalin and the Muses", which I saw in the 1980s at an opening day in New York, where the painting caused a merry commotion.

The success of the canvas was due to the fact that Sots Art overturned the leader into the ancient environment with the same enthusiasm brought to the point of absurdity with which social realism painted uniforms and epaulets, not daring, however, to continue the apotheosis of servility beyond the limits of its era. But here the hyperbole of subservience turned loyalty into its opposite: foolish familiarity. In the company of muses, Stalin seemed not terrible, not formidable, but stupid - like a hero clumsily embroidered on a market rug. Breaking the brakes on verisimilitude, the artists tore down the barriers of history, raised the cult of personality to an infinite degree, and turned their hero into a universal laughing stock.

The leading masters of Sots Art conquered the West with a dialectical interpretation of the Soviet experience

It must be said that the artists were not only skilled practitioners, but also subtle theoreticians. The leading masters of Sots Art conquered the West not by exposing the crimes of the regime, as Solzhenitsyn did, but by their dialectical interpretation of the Soviet experience.

– In addition to the obvious irony and accusatory sarcasm, one of them said at the time, “there is a lyrical confession hidden in these canvases.

“Roughly speaking,” another added, “each of us has a kilogram of feces, albeit nasty, but our own.

And this means that in Sotsart's art there is also the author's reflection, which explains our place in the mythological series.

Today this experience has become relevant again, so I contacted Vitaly Komar to talk about art in the context of Putin's war with Ukraine.

Vitaly, you once told me that artists usually know history well. Therefore, I want to start our conversation with a historical context: what is the place of battle painting? Especially in Russian art, the military and anti-war story in this genre.

Instead of the word "colony" they called "fraternal republics", so the words lose their meaning

Vitaly Komar: The battle genre is the earliest form of art, starting not only from Russian, but also from the cave art of the Stone Age. It's just that battle scenes are depicted there in their nascent form, namely hunting. The fact is that the enemy is very often considered in war precisely as an animal, as a non-human. The oldest scene in the history of art is precisely the image of hunting in these caves, images of animals that are hunted, sometimes along with people. I even have a job where, for example, I depicted Russia as a bear, such a stable symbol. There is something connected with animal instinct, with animal aggressive urges and the concept of war, respectively, and with battle painting.

In Russian art, of course, the most famous battle painter is Vereshchagin. It is surprising that he was close to high military officials, he was encouraged, appreciated, not a single case of censorship by his friends, high military officials, is known. His most interesting is a series dedicated to Central Asia.

It took quite a long time to solve the problem: where should Russia develop? Should she "Asianize" Europe, or should she "Europeanize" her Asian neighbors, like England, by assuming the function of a colonial power? The Vereshchagin cycle is dedicated to the conquest of Central Asia, as we say now, not colonies, but republics, as they used to say in Soviet times. It was such a semantic game: instead of the word "colony" they called "fraternal republics", so the words lose their meaning, but that's another story.

In this series, Vereshchagin created, I think, the most pacifist picture in the world: he depicted a pyramid of skulls, which was made by Tamerlane, the great conqueror of the Golden Horde, in his time. Without the victory of Tamerlane, Russia, of course, would never have acquired even the illusion of independence. Tamerlane destroyed Saray - it was a great capital. Arab travelers described Sarai as superior to Alexandria and Venice. There was heating, there were quarters where they spoke different languages, different peoples lived - it was a great capital, Tamerlane completely destroyed it. And Vereshchagin dedicated his picture, this mountain of skulls, to the conquerors of the past, present and future.

Alexander Genis: What makes it relevant today.

Vitaly Komar: Of course. In general, the attitude towards the other as to a beast, as to a non-human, as to a skull, as to an object of conquest, is very lively. This is the animal principle in man, and it wakes up from time to time.

Oleksandr Genis: The war sharpened interest in Ukrainian art. Actually, everything connected with Ukraine is topical, interesting, important today. The program in Western universities is changing, new Ukrainian departments are being introduced. What is the fate of Ukrainian fine arts in the Soviet and post-Soviet eras in this context? Do we have discoveries in this area?

Vitaly Komar: Of course, they are coming. The most masterfully made paintings of socialist realism were not made in Russia itself, not in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Because the artists who were formed, in particular, before the revolution, played a big role there. But in countries such as China, for example, and Ukraine, young socialist realists have formed who literally, I'm not afraid of this word, virtuosic skills. I had to see big books published in the 90s about Ukrainian art, about socialist realism in particular. From the point of view of craftsmanship, the combination of academicism with such moderate post-impressionism was very typical of the best examples of both Chinese socialist realism and Ukrainian. In this sense, these are the best examples.

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Conceptualism I see in the early designs of weapons made by Leonardo da Vinci

But in Ukraine there were still great traditions of academicism. For example, Taras Shevchenko studied with Bryullov, thanks to Bryullov, his participation in the great appreciation that he received from Bryullov, one of the greatest and most famous Romantic academics of Russian art, he was redeemed from his master, because he was born a serf. Such a Bryullov operation was performed: they agreed with Zhukovsky, who was the tutor of the royal children, that is, he was directly connected with the elite, he had a "turntable", as they say now, Bryullov painted a portrait of Zhukovsky, he was put up for auction, for the money received for this portrait, Taras Shevchenko was redeemed. True, his owner refused to give freedom to his relatives - this was not included in the agreement of the slow-witted intellectuals from St. Petersburg, his relatives remained in serfdom, his family.

The fact is that I became interested in the work of Taras Shevchenko quite early, because I am a kind of diptych: my mother was brought up in a family with the traditions of Judaism, and my father was brought up in the traditions of Christianity, and it was Ukrainian Christianity, he was Ukrainian, there, however, the Polish were also mixed with blood. And dad also painted, he was a military lawyer, like mom, they went through the war. I remember a book about Shevchenko with his biography, with his pictures, with his thesis work, which illustrated his poem "Katrina" - I thought about it and peered into his work. This is brilliant academicism. True, he was a member of the Masonic brotherhood, and when the persecution began he was exiled to Kazakhstan, where he painted Kazakh boys. Absolutely amazing black-and-white watercolors, wonderful things. He had no paints, but he could do black-and-white works.

Alexander Genis: Vitaly, now art is also a weapon in the war with Russia. What role, in particular, does the conceptual school play here? For example, I really like the work of the artist Alex Alekseev (he, by the way, said hello to you). These are clearly postmodern experiences that correspond to the conceptual school. What can be said about this today?

Vitaliy Komar: The point is that conceptualism is not a new art either. I see the connections of so many things that can be called ancient traditions, but it's just that today they have acquired a modernist version. For example, cannibalism exists, but in a modernist form: it is now called organ transplants. This does not mean that the person who received the kidney digested it, but there is a part of the body of another person in his body. That is, formally it can be called a modernist form of cannibalism.

These distant things are coming together. For example, I see conceptualism in the early designs of weapons made by Leonardo da Vinci. These are drawings with a lot of text, and the text is written in a mirror image.

The roots of conceptualism are as old as cannibalism

In this sense, the roots of conceptualism are as ancient as cannibalism, wars and other "charms". The combination of text and image, which is very often typical of conceptualism, was also found in posters, including military posters. For example, there was "Have you signed up as a volunteer?", there is an American equivalent of this poster, where Uncle Sam calls to go to war, there is such an English poster. In contemporary art, conceptualism traces its origins to Marcel Duchamp, in his works the origins of pop art and the origins of conceptualism were combined. By the way, Marcel Duchamp ended up in America precisely because he fled from military service from France during the First World War.

Oleksandr Genis: Now Ukrainian art appeals to the masses, creates successful visual memes, many of them extremely witty and strong. Say, famous, she has already gone around the whole world, a brand where a Russian ship is sent to who knows where. How do you feel about these experiences? How effective can art be ?

Vitaliy Komar : Art, of course, has a certain hypnotic power, because this stopped time is something that only occurs in the world of elementary particles, where absolutely religious logic rules. Any image where time has stopped is a kind of magic, on which cult images, religious images were based. Art certainly works. Ukrainian artists were really inspired by this tragedy. Tragedies generally create masterpieces. Among Ukrainian art, we will find not only masterpieces by Taras Shevchenko or some of the later artists, but also today's contemporary artists. You know, one of my works, where Russia was depicted as a bear, was at the Kyiv Biennale. I went there, gave lectures there, got acquainted with a lot of artists, a large number of wonderful masters in Ukraine.

Alexander Genis: And now let's talk about a topic close to you, and to all of us - about the experience of Sots Art today. I understand the meaning of this trend founded by you and Alik Melamid as a reflection of the last period of the totalitarian regime: a mockery of the defeated enemy, who has no ideological, and non-gendarmerie arguments left. Something like Schweik's tactics: hyperbole as mockery, or, to quote you, "Stalin and the Muses."

What year do we have in the yard? Isn't it the 37th?

It seemed that the peak of the relevance of this art falls on the end of the twentieth century, but today there is a return process. Therefore, to begin with, I will ask: what year do we have in the yard? Isn't it the 37th?

Vitaly Komar: As I said, art stops time - it's like a frozen frame. But I don't quite agree that he was kicking a dead lion. Schweik, by the way, allowed his half-self-half-irony even when the imperial power in Austria-Hungary had not yet collapsed. Sots art also arose in 1972, when dissidents were persecuted. I myself was detained, I was arrested during the performance. The government was still strong then.

Now, of course, almost every Russian artist has done something in the spirit of Sots Art, but all this happened later, when the authorities really began to lose support. In our time, it was quite dangerous. This was proved by the "Bulldozer Exhibition", where the works of many artists, including mine, were destroyed.

Alexander Genis: Still, what is your sense of time, where do we live now? More precisely, when?

In Russia, time slips, it always returns

Vitaliy Komar: You know, I feel more and more that time is one of those great fictions, especially in totalitarian states that are built on holding back time. For example, I remember that on Gorky Street in Stalin's time, "Meat", "Milk" were engraved in granite over a store. Here in America, for example, where the two-party system is constantly pushing these wheels, the movement, the balance reigns - now the left, now the right, now Obama, now Trump, the tightrope walker's balance, here it changes all the time. I don't remember a single store, not even a supermarket, that has remained in the same place where it was when I arrived, everything changes quickly here.

But in totalitarian states there is a need to freeze time, to return to the past. When I read some news from Russia, I have the feeling that time is stalling there, it always comes back. The main thing is that there is no concept of the present, no one cares about the present. They idealize either the future, communism, or the past, tsarist Russia or even Stalin's.

Alexander Genis: I understand you well. I have a meat grinder at home, I keep it as a monument to the Soviet era, because "Metalworks. 3 rubles" is carved on this mighty cast-iron thing. That is, this is an eternal price, it will always be three rubles. This meat grinder is like the pyramid of Cheops, like the Baalbek plate. It is forever, because both Soviet power is eternal, and the meat grinder is eternal. Symbol directly from your picture.

Vitaly Komar: This is the main lie that time does not move. All other petty lies are based on this.

Alexander Genis: Sots Art turned out to be a skilled gravedigger of ideas. No matter how the government resists, it has nothing to argue with, it has no arguments left after you ridiculed it. What can Sots Art do today and tomorrow?

The artist distorts reality, and this is only allowed for dictators

Vitaliy Komar: The fact is that Sots Art was perceived not as irony. Our series "Nostalgic socialist realism", the word "nostalgic" was quoted, quoted, the name of the series was quoted, but everyone took it seriously today. Today there really is nostalgia, it is expressed in other forms, by no means mocking. They drink vodka and begin to sing Soviet songs - this is all nostalgia, this is a form of manifestation of second-tier Sots Art. There is a second Sots Art, which is absolutely serious.

Alexander Genis: I've always wondered: why do the authorities react so painfully precisely to the fine arts? Let us recall Khrushchev and the frenzied attacks on abstractionism. It seems to me that one hypothesis can explain this: dictators see a magical connection between the depicted and the depicted, the artist distorts reality, and only dictators are allowed to do this.

And how do you explain the government's jealousy of art?

Vitaly Komar: I think the authorities are afraid of claims for eternity. Frozen time is eternity. We just do not understand what it is: eternity of moments or moments of eternity. I think a dictator always sees himself as part of eternity, but art is also part of eternity, at least art that has survived. I think it's just jealousy.

Alexander Genis: Vitaly, you are a veteran of Russian nonconformist art. You are a participant in the already mentioned "Bulldozer Exhibition", for example. What lessons from the past apply to today's anti-war protest movement?

Vitaliy Komar: Here, perhaps, it would be appropriate to quote from my recollections of this event.

The "Bulldozer Exhibition" became the culmination of the history of unofficial art. On September 15, 1974, in Moscow's Belyaevo Park, the authorities destroyed the works of many artists, including the works of Oscar Rabin, Lidia Masterkova, Evgeny Rukhin, Vladimir Nemukhin, Alexander Melamid and mine. Today, few can imagine the sensational flood of world press caused by this scandal.”

And one more fragment.

“When I saw the bulldozers, my last illusions about the laws vanished. As if in a dream, I looked at people in civilian clothes who broke our works and professionally beat and arrested those who resisted them. I'm stoned. But when they threw me into the autumn mud and began to snatch my “Double Self-Portrait with Melamid in the form of Lenin and Stalin” from my hands, the fear disappeared. Before that, they had already distorted several works of our Sots Art, but this "Self-Portrait" was especially close to me. At that moment, when one of them stepped on the hardboard with his foot and wanted to break it, I imagined myself not as Lenin or Stalin, but as Tolstoy or Gandhi. I raised my head and quietly, with a confidential intonation, said: "Are you ? After all, this is a masterpiece!" Our eyes met and some kind of inexplicably "other" contact arose between us. Perhaps, at the word "masterpiece", he remembered something long forgotten ? I don't know, but this work he didn't break it, he just threw it into the back of a truck. A minute later, still lying in the mud, I followed the garbage truck receding into history and smiled. Maybe it was my "finest hour" ? "

Alexander Genis: Do you think that non-conformist art was involved in gaining certain freedoms in Russia during these 30 years? Did it help perestroika, shall we say?

Soviet power was like a bone in the throat of everyone

Vitaly Komar: I think that the perestroika and further disintegration of the Soviet empire happened only because the most diverse forces united - from criminals to religious fanatics, from philosophers and philosophies to alcoholics and artists. Soviet power was like a bone in the throat for everyone. It was the unification of different forces, including artists, that certainly helped this. It was some kind of miracle.

Alexander Genis: Do you think it is possible to repeat such a miracle?

Vitaliy Komar: The fact is that there was a struggle between two secret societies. Because in Russia it was not just the Bolshevik Party that came to power in 1917, even in alliance with the anarchists or the Left SRs, an illegal terrorist society came to power, which combined legal methods - speeches in the Duma - with illegal ones - murders and so on. And this is a very special type of secret society. They did not have the experience of an American president who was, say, some kind of governor. They had no experience in managing anything other than managing a secret society. So they turned the whole country into a secret society. I don't think Russia has always been bad. There were gaps, for example, the Constitution, the Duma arose after 1905, the Silver Age, the avant-garde arose, poetry flourished, it was interesting, even caricatures of the king were printed. It was a short period. When such a semi-terrorist society came to power, it began to rule the country as a terrorist society. You can’t even blame them: they had no other experience in management.

This is a scary tragicomic parody of the two-party system

But they themselves created a competitor - a second secret society, also a terrorist one - the secret police, the Cheka. And there began a rather large long struggle between these two secret societies. This is a terrible tragicomic parody of the two-party system. Either Yezhov was arrested by Stalin, or the authorities arrested former friends of Lenin, members of the government. That is, there was an undercover fight all the time.

Now, as we can see, the secret police won after all, and they have a lot of experience in prevention, they knew Russia better than the party, so they won. They had a huge number of informants, they developed plans for the assassination specifically in order to take measures against a possible assassination as a second step. There was a department that developed anti-Soviet actions, and then it went to another department that worked out how to prevent this action.

Alexander Genis: It cannot be said that this is an optimistic forecast.

It is believed that a myth cannot be exposed, a myth can only be defeated by another myth. As an experienced mythologist and myth-builder, can you tell me which myths work for Putin and which myths can ruin him?

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Vitaliy Komar: Only one myth can destroy, it will arise sooner or later - this is the myth that everything is open, that there is no lie. Because everything is based on lies. As one owner of a Russian restaurant in New York said: "Everyone lies there. " Everything is based on lies, every word, every behavior, every mask, every facial expression, every claim. Even a drunk person becomes a terrible hypocrite, he by no means begins to say everything that is in his soul. The destruction of what is something secret is the destruction of the myth.

Alexander Genis: Tell me, if you were in Russia today, young and angry, what would you draw, what would be on your easel today?

Vitaliy Komar: That's what I have on my easel today. I told you about the work that I exhibited, it was selected for the Kyiv Biennale, it was several years ago, but I continued to work on it. There is such an idea: the bear is attacking certain borders of "Yin-Yang", an attack is underway on "Yin-Yang". And there are several symbols there, there is a symbol of social balance - these are scales, a symbol of judgment, justice and a symbol of universal balance - this is "Yin-Yang". I combine these symbols and interpret these lines as exactly what the boundaries are.

Because in the last century the last border revision was with Yugoslavia. Everyone sighed: everything has been decided, the borders have been established in Europe, thank God, the end, the last century, that's all. And suddenly, unexpectedly, in 2014, a revision of these borders begins, the same borders that maintained a balance between different states. This is a terrible tragedy, this is a terrible surprise, this is an attack on the borders, no one expected this. Moreover, it must be said that when creating borders in the former Yugoslavia, neither America nor another NATO state took a single centimeter of territory. And here we are talking about what needs to be captured.

The only animal you can't trust is the bear

Alexander Genis: Interestingly, the bear is a very curious heraldic image of the state. Because usually there is a lion, an eagle, some kind of royal sovereign animals. I had circus friends, including trainers, they said that the only animal that cannot be trusted is a bear. When you look at the arena in the circus, then pay attention: the bear is always muzzled, the lions are not, the tigers are not, and the bear is muzzled, because he is scary and unpredictable.

Among other things, the bear, returning to Sots Art, a kind of people's king, hangs out with gypsies, can roam and dance at the festival. This is a kind of cross between Yeltsin, Pugachev, and now Putin.

But, returning to your idea of ​​our tragic time, when Russia is breaking the borders, we can say that it is sad and true.

Tell me, however, what will happen next? I understand that this question is asked to everyone, but artists often predict the future without meaning to. I have always believed that art lifts some veils. How do you see what will happen next?

Vitaliy Komar: I think that, on the one hand, interest in Europe will increase, that is, there will be a stratification: an orientation towards Europe, as it has always been among the intelligentsia, and an orientation towards Asia, towards the Asian path of development.

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